Conversations with Mike

0:00Introduction

David: My name is David Gouthro, and I'm here today with Mike McGraw, one of the mayoral candidates in the City of North Vancouver. To give you a sense of why I'm doing this: I believe that character counts when you're deciding who you'd like to represent you on a municipal council, and it's rare that we get all of that information in a debate or on a website.

So I'm just going to have a conversation with Mike. I'll declare right now that I don't live in North Van. This is simply an opportunity to get to know Mike as the person you may choose to vote for in the upcoming election. Welcome, Mike.

Mike: Thank you, David. Glad to be here.

0:40From School PAC to Public Service

David: Mike, I want to go back a little - not your whole bio and history - but what were some of the formative events in your life that made you decide to get into politics? It's not for the faint of heart, and not everyone says, “I can't wait to be a politician.” When did that interest first start for you?

Mike: I grew up in North Vancouver as a young boy. We moved away for a period of time, and we returned with our family in 2008. This has always been home; it's where my roots are. My wife asked me what I was going to do to get back into the community, because I was very excited to be back in North Vancouver permanently.

I said, “I don't know. Maybe I'll connect with the school system. Maybe I'll join a school PAC.” So I started attending some school PAC meetings, and I found myself leading and transforming our district PAC, which is where parents' voices meet the system. I was encouraged by many people to consider running for school board. Around that time, I also got involved with the Outdoor School, where I sat on an advisory committee doing a lot of great work around children's programming and Indigenous programs.

I got a reputation for being somebody who was very community-minded, and I developed a nickname: “the voice of reason.” I always appreciated that; it humbled me. But I was never there to be a politician. I was there to serve the community.

2:12A Servant Leadership Style

Mike: From there, I went on to found a business. I grew it, and I retired and left it last fall. I was always referred to as a strong leader with a servant leadership style. I think what people meant by that is that I always put my employees first. I essentially felt that I worked for them. I was there to support them to be successful, and if I was good at that and they were successful, then my business would be successful. And that was the case.

Then, as I was leaving - I hadn't even gone out the door - somebody said, “I suppose you're going to run for mayor next.” I think that's an indication of how people saw me and what I'm all about. I've said in many videos and some of my material that I really feel drawn to serve this community, and that's why I'm here.

David: I love to hear that, Mike, because it makes me think back. I'm a management consultant, and one of the things we talk about in leadership is servant leadership, as articulated by Robert Greenleaf, where the person who's leading is at the bottom, serving those above, rather than at the top telling people what to do. It sounds very much like that's the approach you took in your business.

Mike: Yes, I would say so. And I think that's the type of leadership our city needs right now.

3:30Top Priority: Residents and Businesses at the Centre

David: If you were elected, Mayor Mike, what's the single most important change you want residents to see by the end of your four-year term? I know a lot of people have grandiose lists of everything they're going to do. What would you like people to actually experience, and perhaps even hold you and your council accountable for producing over the next four years?

Mike: In my view, we need to return to a place where residents and businesses are back at the centre of City Hall's focus. What I mean by that is, I think we've strayed away from listening. I think we've got some work to do on our city culture.

I want to be remembered as a leader who made people feel heard - who showed them that they have a voice and the opportunity to shape council's decisions on what this community looks like over the next four years. That's probably the most important thing.

4:27Making Residents Feel Heard

David: I've been listening to a book called I'm Right and You're an Idiot by James Hoggan. He bemoans the terrible state of public discourse - the misinformation, the pollution of the public square - and how so much of it, from a PR standpoint or otherwise, tends to polarize people. So the important thing is to be able to come together and provide the kind of information and input you're talking about.

How would you go about doing that? Many people don't get engaged unless there's a problem that affects them personally, and when something does impact them, they come out too late to actually provide input. What are some ideas for engaging more people in shaping what council does? Presumably the people aren't there to support council; council is there to help the people get what they want or need to have a vibrant, wonderful community to live in.

Mike: Well, it starts with a leader who's reachable and approachable. One thing I've said from the beginning is that I will hold Meet the Mayor events twice a month. It's done in other municipalities; there are other mayors who have committed to this for years, and it makes a difference. Give residents the opportunity to come and sit down with the mayor, ask the tough questions, and be in the room to connect and have a dialogue.

It also means listening at the council table. North Vancouver City Council has one of the most restrictive public input approaches of any municipality. You get two minutes, and if you go two minutes and five seconds, you are cut off mid-sentence. Unless council unanimously agrees otherwise, only a certain number of speakers are allowed, and you're not allowed to speak on the same issue more than once in a three-month period.

So there are many people who don't even bother. Or when they do show up and get their 1.9 minutes in, it just results in “thank you for your message,” and council moves on. They don't really debate it, and they don't really take it into account. I've done this myself, so I can say this firsthand. People walk away feeling like it didn't make a difference, that council already knew what it was going to do. I think that is very, very important.

The last thing I'll say, David, is that when I was on the school board, it was really no different. We had many people who would never think they'd be attending a school board meeting. It's not on their calendar; it's not a priority for them. Then something would happen - a program change, a school closure, whatever it was - and they would get upset and come to speak to the board. There were a few of us, and I in particular, who would listen to them, and then we would have debate and discussion, and we would reflect what we heard in our decisions. I think that's been lost at City Hall.

7:23Real Consultation and Better Data

David: I think that's important. I sometimes wonder what the best format is, because most of the council meetings I've seen - I haven't seen the ones in North Van - are rubber-stamp affairs. Boom, boom, boom. Maybe a couple of minutes. That format favours people who are outspoken and comfortable speaking, but it disadvantages those for whom English may not be their first language, or those who are a little more introverted. So you get a skewed view of what people are interested in. What are some other formats for giving people an opportunity to speak and be heard in the community?

Mike: Well, that's really what public consultation is for. And once again, we have many people who are incredibly frustrated because they see what they call performative consultation. They see reports framed as “what we heard,” and what I've said is that we need to release what was said. It's very easy to take input from a survey or a booth in a park, compile it, and then release it framed in a way that supports the direction council wants to go. That needs to change.

One thing I've learned, and many business owners know this, is that good decisions come from good data. The city does not do a good job of that. It runs surveys online where you have people in Europe answering the same survey question 37 times, and they all count with equal weight to somebody who lives three blocks from City Hall. That can't happen.

8:58Why Your Municipal Vote Matters

David: That's huge, because people tend to get cynical, skeptical and disengaged. In fact, I was reading something in the North Shore News the other day that I found possibly distressing because of the way it was said. Someone had gone back and researched the last number of elections - I think across the whole North Shore - and found that something like 93% of incumbents get elected.

Some people might say, “If that's the case, why bother voting?” or “I'll just go by the names.” I don't think the article intended to discourage people from getting to know the candidates, but it's easy to step back and say, “Nothing's bad enough, it's not impacting me personally, let's just go with the tried and true, because they're probably going to get in anyway.” What do you say to people who are cynical and willing to step back? Why, in spite of the stats, should they get to know the candidates and vote from an educated standpoint rather than a habitual one?

Mike: I think most people already understand that municipal political decisions matter more to you directly than those at higher levels of government. What happens at City Hall has a direct impact on you: your property taxes, density, the design of your community, arts and recreation, supportive community associations, streets, gridlock. All of those things matter.

As for voter apathy, municipal elections tend to have dismal turnouts. I think the last election here in the city was just over 22%, and 30 to 35% turnout is considered fairly typical, maybe even very strong. People understandably become apathetic and say, “It's just another politician, and it's going to be the same all over again for the next four years.”

But we decided early on that this is a grassroots campaign. We do not take money from property developers or their families. I think that's a principled approach, and I don't do it to demonize the development community whatsoever. In fact, I've told many of those I've met with that it helps them. I think it's healthy for residents and business owners to understand that decisions aren't driven, guided or affected by donations or favours. I think that's important.

Reaching people requires education, and it requires a grassroots effort. I've got 65 volunteers, and it's challenging to manage and activate them. They're motivated, but getting them going in the right direction takes work. It's about getting the message out that you can make a difference, because what happens here is going to impact your life in a big way.

12:10Engaging Young Voters

Mike: The last thing I'd say, David, not to make this a long answer, is that we actually held an event with young adults. One of the things we've talked about is that many young people don't understand the importance of voting and don't get involved in municipal politics. Largely, that's because they don't see a future for themselves here in the city, for lots of different reasons, as you'd guess.

It was fascinating to hear their viewpoints that evening. But what fascinated us most was that they are keenly interested in understanding what elections are about: why they should vote and how it works. It's not taught in school. I think that helps us reach that generation and help them understand.

David: I'm going to jump around a bit, because I didn't script my questions, so my mind may diverge. Getting young people actively engaged, and listening to them and trying to understand them, is so important. I work with a number of boards, and in many cases the board members, no discredit to them, tend to be a little older, and they talk as though they know what younger people want because they've read a survey or a study. You get quite a different view when you actually hear someone describe what it's like from their perspective. So I'm thrilled you have those young voices there, and people who are interested.

13:36The Role of the Mayor

David: Mike, the mayor is one person on a council. How many councillors do you have in the City of North Vancouver?

Mike: Six councillors and one mayor.

David: So the mayor is one person. What do you see as the role of the mayor from a governance perspective?

Mike: There are really two primary roles that are key. One is to provide leadership at the council table. The mayor sets the agenda and makes sure council meetings are conducted fairly and substantively, so that council can have healthy debate and make good governance decisions.

Council is responsible for governance, and city staff are responsible for executing on council's direction: policy decisions, bylaw decisions and so on. That starts with the CAO. The mayor works very closely with the CAO, and is the bridge between the governing body, which is council, and city staff.

14:37Council, Staff and City Hall Culture

David: With respect to staff, what do you see as the appropriate way for council members to interact with them? I've seen it done well, and I've seen it done inappropriately, in some cases unethically, maybe even illegally. I'm not talking about North Van, just to be clear. How do you see the interaction between members of council and staff, and how is that different from the mayor's relationship with the CAO?

Mike: The CAO is directly responsible for the performance of staff in carrying through policy decisions. What we have right now is a bit of a challenge in North Vancouver. Council members often have questions on reports. At the end of the week they get a package, sometimes 300 pages long, and they need to absorb a lot of material so they can sit at the council table, receive a report and ask good questions.

City council members should have the opportunity to talk with senior staff if they've got a couple of questions. That's discouraged right now here in North Vancouver, and I think that's a challenge. Culture within City Hall is also a challenge. That needs to be addressed, and I think the mayor needs to take a leadership position on that as well.

David: That's a pretty big topic. Without getting too specific, what do you mean by culture? We don't need to dwell on what it is right now, but what does it need to change to? What should we aspire to?

Mike: When you're running a campaign, many things emerge, and the one that's emerged more strongly than any other is when I speak with business owners. There's a lot of frustration, and frankly, a lot of fear in expressing that frustration, particularly during the election cycle, because they find it very challenging to work with City Hall. We also have many residents who reach out, write letters and send emails, and don't hear back.

We need to be working in partnership with residents, businesses and community associations. We need to have open dialogue, partnership and mutual respect.

I'm a director of a society that put on a Canada Day event in Civic Plaza on July 1. We're just a group of seven volunteers who wanted to bring the parade back. Because of FIFA, we weren't able to do that this year, but the city worked with us and gave us the use of Civic Plaza, which was fantastic. Then we learned firsthand how challenging it is to work with City Hall to pull off an event. Frankly, the people were great, but the steps we had to go through, the hoops we had to jump through, were quite painful and quite onerous. We saw how difficult it can be to make things happen and to grow community spirit, and I think that needs to change.

17:47What Residents Are Saying

David: I'm sure people listening would agree with that. I have just a couple more questions, Mike. You mentioned you have 65 volunteers out there talking to people. What are some of the things you hear that people really hope can be addressed? What are the big issues in North Van that are important to the people you're listening to?

Mike: The first thing everybody talks about is the wastewater treatment plant, which we know is a very challenging, complex issue. I believe there are solutions to the tax burden that's hitting North Shore residents, but in my view, they involve higher levels of government. It requires more support, with the province, and in particular the federal government, stepping up to the table. They put up 30% of the estimated cost up front, but they haven't put up 30% of what the ultimate cost is going to be. I believe that needs to happen.

But in general, the average person who goes to work and raises a family, maybe works in a business or as a teacher, wants to feel listened to and heard. They want to feel that decisions are not made behind closed doors.

One project I'll bring up is the Harbour Swim Deck at the waterfront. None of us on my team expected this to be such a polarizing thing. I do get the appeal; having a deck at the waterfront for the summertime sounds like a really great thing. But what frustrates people is that the city is going to spend $5 million as a capital contribution toward putting it in place, and it just finished saving $4.6 million by only having a 50-metre pool in our new rec centre. [Correction: Mike misspoke here. Residents asked for a 50-metre pool; the new Harry Jerome pool is 25 metres.]

The Harbour Swim Deck is polarizing not necessarily because of concerns that it can only be used two or three months a year, or that it may be in a polluted harbour, or all those things. It's more about: why are you making this decision behind closed doors, then doing consultation afterwards, and then pushing it through? It's an example of how people are frustrated.

Fiscal responsibility is another big one, and maybe I'll finish on this point. We need to be spending money wisely, because we have gone into considerable debt here in the city. Projects that are sometimes framed as vanity projects don't make a lot of sense to people who wonder what we're doing to handle our financial situation.

20:18Reaching a Diverse Community

David: I actually thought of a couple more questions. I should never say I have just two or three more; that's the kiss of death. You have quite a multicultural community in the city. How do you engage multiple cultures, including people who come from places where government isn't trusted, or who aren't comfortable engaging? How do you reach a larger percentage of the diverse community within the City of North Vancouver?

Mike: It's challenging. North Vancouver is well known for its very significant Persian community, and I have a number of people on my team who understand what it feels like to move their family here to North Vancouver having never experienced democracy before, and not really understanding how democracy works here. What are elections? How do they work? If I vote for somebody, will it really count?

So we're working hard to educate people. I think a lot of them don't want to hear a politician standing there telling them why they should vote for him. They appreciate somebody who helps them understand the importance of voting and why it matters, and who is open to answering their questions. It's a challenging thing, for sure.

David: Well, at least it's acknowledged and you're trying to address it, which is great.

21:43Building Bridges

David: Maybe the last question, Mike, is about the skills required of a mayor. As I mentioned, the focus of my work is that one of the roles of leaders is to build bridges. In a community that can be polarized around certain issues, when are some times in the past that you've brought together groups that didn't start out agreeing, so they could come together to actually achieve something? Is that a skill that's required of a mayor? And if so, do you have examples of doing that, perhaps outside the political arena?

Mike: Absolutely, it's a skill that's required. I'll give you one example from my own business. I built a game studio, and at one point there was a sister studio of ours - we shared the same publishing company - located in Hong Kong. Because of political reasons there, they felt the need to shut down and move somewhere else in the world. I was asked what I thought about Canada, and I said, “If they're willing, let's bring them to North Vancouver. I have space next door to my studio.” So that's what we did.

I brought them over, helped them get their permanent residency and supported them in the transition. Then I merged them with us so that we became a single studio. Frankly, there wasn't a lot of trust on their side, so I had to work very, very hard, having long conversations with them to help them understand that this was in their best interests. In the end, it was a fabulous success, and I felt really good about it. But it took a lot of work, and I believe I've got the skills, the tools and the ability to do that.

23:26Having the Courage to Make Hard Decisions

David: Here's my last one, Mike. You did really well on that one. Let's say there's a situation that you know is in the long-term best interest of the City of North Vancouver and its citizens, but in the meantime, there's a lot of resistance to it. That often gets polarized on council as well, depending on what people promised in order to get elected. It's best for the city long-term, possibly beyond your own term, but a lot of people are opposed. How would you approach that?

Mike: Well, again, it comes back to listening. I've been the strata president of our residential building, a mixed-use building, for six years. So I understand that not everybody agrees with the decisions a strata council makes, and it's no different at City Hall.

It matters that people feel they can come and talk to you, express their frustration and their anger, raise their questions, and maybe make their viewpoints known very strongly, as long as they understand that not everybody is going to be happy with the decision, and that collectively you sometimes have to make very challenging, difficult decisions. I think you always need to take a long-term view. You can't take a short-term view.

It just requires partnership, communication, listening and effective consultation. And everybody needs to keep in mind that sometimes not everybody's going to be happy, but you have to have the courage to make the right decision.

David: Courage is such a huge word: getting people outside their primary value of comfort to do the courageous thing.

25:13Ask Mike

David: Mike, I've really appreciated getting to know you a little better, and I'm going to put you on the spot one more time. After people have listened to this, are you okay with them reaching out to you for a chat, to whatever extent you have the energy to respond? Can I make that offer on your behalf?

Mike: Absolutely. We built a website about four months ago, and there's an Ask Mike feature on it. Frankly, I didn't anticipate the sheer volume of questions that would come through. I've had over a thousand; I think I'm at about 1,100 questions. I think that actually says something: people want to have somebody answer their questions.

I haven't gotten all the way through them. I think I'm at about 800, and there are a few people saying, “I haven't heard from Mike yet,” so please be patient. But if you go to McGrawForMayor.ca, or .com, it doesn't matter, there's an Ask Mike form on there. I encourage people to reach out and ask me their question, and I'll do my best to get back to them.

David: Great. Thanks very much, Mike. I know you only have so much time, but the fact that so many people are interested bodes well for having an educated citizenry that's going to take their votes seriously. Thanks so much for your time today.

Mike: Thank you, David. I appreciate it.